Curse

Sekkira · Mar 20, 2006, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grinder

Divine favours what, 30-40 health max? Its handy, but comparitively, its not going to keep the team going any longer than any other healer.

And each class has their own benefits -

Energy management and N's - By the time a N/Mo gets down to low mana there should be dead things boosting its energy, so there should be no worries for N's continuly healing their party members with more powerful heals, unlike monks.

Energy and E's - no comment needed

Fast casting and Me's - yeah, for some of those longer casting spells... heal party, healing seed, etc...

As for runes, well, the other classes can take superior runes to help them deal more damage, so that they will never have to heal as much. Or to lay down wards, or weaken/slow enemies, or to backfire/interrupt their casters. To prevent, rather than cure.

Lets take DF and HP both at 12. That's +38 healing each spell cast. Orison is going to heal for 60 and divine favour is going to bring it up to +98 heal. That's for 5 energy. One cast.

A necro is going to have more energy because things are dying. But they're only healing 60 per cast. For arguments sake, lets make it heal other with a lovely recharge of 3 seconds. 151 Healing. Divine favor would have brought that up to 179 and gone to hit orison for another 98. 277 healed out of 15 energy with two spells cast as opposed to 211.

Say we add a third heal to this wonderful mess (zoomj, three heals in one battle?) Dwayna's, which heals for a measly 51 and for the hell of it, lets have an enchantment on this person cause that wammo loves his mending. 68 heal from a necro. Boom, 106 from the monk. Now your necro has healed a total of 279, three casts and it just 2 health better than the monk's 2 with divine favor. It's still 114 short of what the monk could bust out in three moves.

Now for a fourth spell. Getting to 152 short. Fifth, 190 short. Sixth, 228 short. Your tank is now dying because you can't heal him fast enough. No, well of blood isn't going to outheal that damage. Your tank is now dead. The monsters are coming for you.

It's okay though, you have full energy.

Sekkira · Mar 20, 2006, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

Its not a reliance on monks thats the problem with PUGs. Its dependence on others.

Yes. How dare anyone think that this isn't a game meant for a team and everyone should look out for themselves instead of their team.

Zakarr · Mar 20, 2006, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Typical PvE PUGs:

Party has 8 of 8 players.

Random player1: "zomggm, we don't have any monks!!!"
Random player2: "kick two! get monks!"
Leader: "we can survive without monks besides there is no monks in here"
Random player3: "take alesia and lina!"
Random player1: "im leaving if you don't get monks!11!1"
Leader: "everyone just bring some healing skill and be more careful"
Random player4: "we have more offensive power because there is no monks so enemies die faster and we get less damage because of that"
Random player1: "you are n00bzz!!!"

*Random player1 leaves*
*Random player2 leaves*
*Random player3 leaves*

Ascalon and Northern Shiverpeaks are the only areas where I have managed to get full PUG party easily without primary monks. Everywhere else they either demand monks or leave when we are doing missions.

Silent Kitty · Mar 20, 2006, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

It's okay though, you have full energy.

Haha, you forgot the sarcastic emoticon

Raxxman · Mar 20, 2006, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Monks aren't needed, no one class is needed.

Still having a warrior to take heat off squishys is handy yah?

Le Grinder · Mar 20, 2006, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

Lets take DF and HP both at 12. That's +38 healing each spell cast. Orison is going to heal for 60 and divine favour is going to bring it up to +98 heal. That's for 5 energy. One cast.

A necro is going to have more energy because things are dying. But they're only healing 60 per cast. For arguments sake, lets make it heal other with a lovely recharge of 3 seconds. 151 Healing. Divine favor would have brought that up to 179 and gone to hit orison for another 98. 277 healed out of 15 energy with two spells cast as opposed to 211.

Say we add a third heal to this wonderful mess (zoomj, three heals in one battle?) Dwayna's, which heals for a measly 51 and for the hell of it, lets have an enchantment on this person cause that wammo loves his mending. 68 heal from a necro. Boom, 106 from the monk. Now your necro has healed a total of 279, three casts and it just 2 health better than the monk's 2 with divine favor. It's still 114 short of what the monk could bust out in three moves.

Now for a fourth spell. Getting to 152 short. Fifth, 190 short. Sixth, 228 short. Your tank is now dying because you can't heal him fast enough. No, well of blood isn't going to outheal that damage. Your tank is now dead. The monsters are coming for you.

It's okay though, you have full energy.

Just asking, on average, how many heals would be cast/per creatures being killed? Focus fire on 1 critter from 8 players usually brings down most in just a few seconds. That right there is an extra 10 energy with which to cast another 2 heal others instead of 2 orisons, for each creature killed. If you're lucky enough to have a MM on your team, the only healing spells needed by a N/Mo would be Heal other and breeze (and maybe seed). For the rest you can take sweet sweet curses with which to hamper those pesky melee bad guys, or spiteful with which to kill kill kill. By the way, has anyone else noticed that rending enchantments on a Risen Ashern Hulk makes them really really easy to kill (removes arua of the lich?).

So a Nerc with all these marvelous healing spells is just sitting around not using them, with full energy? Sounds like someone isn't playing their character properly.

Another scenario: what happens if this damage is being dealt by two attaxes, or by 3 grasps? The monk can sit there, casting their orisons and heal others, healing a good, say 30% more than the Nerc could? What happens when the Nerc casts enfeeble, or shadow of fear? Suddenly all the haling they have to do is reduced to 33% of what they had to do. Or to 17% if both are cast. Protective spirit could be used as a comparitive measure, but thats only going to last 10 seconds as opposed to 30, for the energy cost.

I'd have to say that from my experice, laying down shadow of fear on the fist and hand titans as they pop up is the most effective damage reduction (healing countermeasure) you can do.

(Also, if the tank dies, thats another 10 energy to heal everyone else that little bit more

)

FalconDance · Mar 20, 2006, 03:02 PM // 15:02

For some missions, monks are not needed if the party works well together. Yesterday my ele, a warrior and a mesmer (all around lvl 14 and none of us monk-secondaries) did the mission and bonus at D'Alessio by ourselves with very little difficulty---after the two monks had dropped us (one went the wrong way and bitched when he died and the lvl 20 bitched we were n00bs and left) very early in. Of course, since we finished after they left, who were the n00bs?

Another party I was in were all casters and we tromped through the Maguuma with only a little difficulty. Based on that experience, would you say that warrior primaries really arent' needed in PvE?

Depends on where you are, what you're going against, and how well your team works together, I'd say. I've been in groups with three healers who couldn't keep themselves healed least of all the party---and I've been in parties with a monk-secondary who was very capable of keeping the entire group in good health.

Minus Sign · Mar 20, 2006, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

Yes. How dare anyone think that this isn't a game meant for a team and everyone should look out for themselves instead of their team.

Me first, you when I can. If you die, tough cookies, but if I can't help it without killing myself, better one of us die than both.

Your right. You're absolutely right. GW is a team game, which means you are a part of a team and so, responsible to that team to do your part.

If its your turn at bat, are you going to blame the guy still warming the bench because you fouled out? Thats what people are doing to healers, no matter the class.

Accept the consquences of your own mistakes and learn from them. Bring the right skills to help yourself and better the group in the doing. And if you can't do this, don't demand it of others.

I stand by the statement you quoted. When you rely on someone, you trust them to do their part, so you can do yours the best you can. Reliance is not a problem, no matter the proffession.

When you reach a point of dependency though, you're crossing a line. You've lost the ability to survive on your own skill, another core of Guild Wars.

Why does my monk have to be your crutch whenever your Whammo agroes two mob groups with no damage reduction skills? By proxy, why does your necro "have to" bring Blood Ritual for my monks mana?

FalconDance · Mar 20, 2006, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Minus Sign---agree whole heartedly! That's why my ele and warrior "wastes" (in others' words) a slot for her Troll Unguent, etc. Everyone should at least try to keep themselves going........

Last time my monk Cait was out with a group (helping a friend in the Maguuma), I told everyone that I expected a few things of them: warriors to have some sort of aggro control (they didn't but learned really quickly when I slowed healing on them), elementalists (any caster, really) are not tanks so don't run up and stand in the aggro (she was my personal mana sink for a while until she died a few times) and self-heal is a good thing......especially if your monk is running from the triple aggro the tanks just let through their ranks.

And having a necro battery around is nice, but I've found that few know how to use it efficiently or properly. I've only have the pleasure of working with *one* who understood the skill, and that was in the Fire Islands where it really counted

.

Sekkira · Mar 20, 2006, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

Me first, you when I can. If you die, tough cookies, but if I can't help it without killing myself, better one of us die than both.

Your right. You're absolutely right. GW is a team game, which means you are a part of a team and so, responsible to that team to do your part.

If its your turn at bat, are you going to blame the guy still warming the bench because you fouled out? Thats what people are doing to healers, no matter the class.

Accept the consquences of your own mistakes and learn from them. Bring the right skills to help yourself and better the group in the doing. And if you can't do this, don't demand it of others.

I stand by the statement you quoted. When you rely on someone, you trust them to do their part, so you can do yours the best you can. Reliance is not a problem, no matter the proffession.

When you reach a point of dependency though, you're crossing a line. You've lost the ability to survive on your own skill, another core of Guild Wars.

Why does my monk have to be your crutch whenever your Whammo agroes two mob groups with no damage reduction skills? By proxy, why does your necro "have to" bring Blood Ritual for my monks mana?

Agreed. I rely on my monk to keep me alive while they rely (and rightly so) in me keeping those buggers hitting me and not them. As a monk, I tell the necro to bring something other than blood ritual as they're wasting a slot.

As for Le Grinder, I never meant to put it forth that a monk is absolutely mandatory, but more that divine favor is superior to soul reaping when it comes to healing. Sure, over time, a necro has the energy to outcast a monk in battle, but monks give more bang for their buck, so to speak. Casting takes time, and when a monk can be on par with a necro with two casts while the necro casts three, then you have something good there.

Casting takes time, and if a lot of damage is being dealt fast, healing spells aren't exactly the fastest. You want the most you can get out of each cast and a necro just cannot compete.

Arcanis the Omnipotent · Mar 20, 2006, 03:23 PM // 15:23

I've been trying to bring along Ether Feast more often lately, I just hope factions gives Mesmers another self heal. Ours is currently probably the worst one.

As for the topic: Are monks neccissary. Yes. Why? Because they are there. It doesnt matter if you can do the missions and quests without them, it matters that they are there to be taken into the party and make everything go smoother. Every single class has that exact same job. Make the task go smoother.

Monks have 3 possible roles. And with all classes they do their job better than what other classes with them as secondary could do it. I've also only seen mention made of Healer Monks in this thread and nothing about Prot or Smite.

KvanCetre · Mar 20, 2006, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grinder

Divine favours what, 30-40 health max? Its handy, but comparitively, its not going to keep the team going any longer than any other healer.

As for secondary healers - its not just divine favors, its runes and headpiece as well. With one healing skill thats pretty common, heal other...
12 healing prayers - 151
16 healing prayers - 190
Divine favor added in, lets go with 13 in that(39)
151 vs 229

Its a difference of 78 points of healing. That can be a pretty big save...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grinder

And each class has their own benefits -

Energy management and N's - By the time a N/Mo gets down to low mana there should be dead things boosting its energy, so there should be no worries for N's continuly healing their party members with more powerful heals, unlike monks.

Energy and E's - no comment needed

Fast casting and Me's - yeah, for some of those longer casting spells... heal party, healing seed, etc...

I dunno, I rarely have any energy problems on a two monk team... even using skills that cost 10 energy. Fast cast is pretty pointless... Heal party? Waste of energy. Rarely does a situation warrant its use. Healing seed? Not so good since the nerf a long time ago. Not worth it for 10 seconds...

Effigy · Mar 20, 2006, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Maybe people shouldn't rely on monks as much as they do, but it stands to reason that members of a group are better off specializing in what they do than trying to be a jack-of-all trades. Why should everyone in the group waste attributes, skill slots, and possibly a secondary profession for self-heals when one or two group members can just specialize in healing and everyone else focus on offense?

That's not to say that self-heals are bad, as long as you don't compromise your strengths to get them. Rangers are a good example--most ranger will have points in WS for preps and whatnot anyway, so taking Troll Ungent is no big deal. Same with warriors bringing Healing Signet from the Tactics line. However, not all professions and builds are that easy to fit self-heals into, and expecting them to do it simply so you don't have to take a real monk with you makes little sense to me.

FalconDance · Mar 20, 2006, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent

Monks have 3 possible roles. And with all classes they do their job better than what other classes with them as secondary could do it. I've also only seen mention made of Healer Monks in this thread and nothing about Prot or Smite.

I'll admit that on my part, it's because I've not had the good fortune to be grouped with a good protection monk or smiter (barring my own smiter, of course

). The last time I went out with a prot-boon monk, she wasn't able to use her skills efficiently (for whatever reason) and ended up switching to heal.

calamitykell · Mar 20, 2006, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

It's okay though, you have full energy.

And after the Warrior dies, who's gonna heal the Elementalist that everything is attacking? The Monk who's down to 5 enegy from using all those heals on the Warrior? Sure, go ahead.

Just further proof that preventing damage is superior to healing damage.

Sekkira · Mar 20, 2006, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by calamitykell

And after the Warrior dies, who's gonna heal the Elementalist that everything is attacking? The Monk who's down to 5 enegy from using all those heals on the Warrior? Sure, go ahead.

Just further proof that preventing damage is superior to healing damage.

You can't prevent all damage. That's why you have a healer on your team. I was merely comparing how well a healing monk can do their job better than anyone else.

kryshnysh · Mar 20, 2006, 05:04 PM // 17:04

My first character to finish the game was an E/Mo. I healed the party through THK, the Ring of Fire, and Hell's Precipice as the only healer on the team (everyone had to be a bit more self-sufficient, but even THK was comparatively easy with a good enough group). I was our healer, and a monk can do that better.

You don't need a healer on your team if you have a proper setup, but for the average/typical PuG, you need a monk (or healer/proter) a good bit more than you need a tank or anyone else.

Can you design around this? Yes.

Is it going to work well with said average/typical PuG? No.

I gave up going healer with my N/Mo, and Me/Mo (later characters, have more friends, guildies, and experience), I did fine healing, but its not the same as having a monk, and I was better suited for other roles. The only reason I can find to have N/Mo or Me/Mo healers is if you don't have enough people who do like healing (and would prefer it over using henchies) or really like the challenge.

floplag · Mar 20, 2006, 05:13 PM // 17:13

for me this is just more fuel to the fire of a serious lack of creative thinking in gaming these days. the vast majority of players go with the same cookie cutter builds and group makeups. i believe that every class has its role and purpose.

monks have created alot of ill will towards them with arrogance and gaul to actually charge to help a mission ... but not all are guilty of such acts.

but the bigger issue is that all you see, over and over, are the same crutches being used, and the same boring setups in use.. and little ability to actually think. does any group really NEED 2 monks ... doubtful. especially with the overabundance of Wammos out there that can take care of themselves in large part if they acutally think.

some places, if your not a monk, or wammo .. of some specific other build ... you cant even get a mission. going through the game as a mesmer showed me alot about the complete lack of creativity. i struggled to get groups much of the time .. yet when i did, things went so much easier.. usually attributed to grerat healing or wammo damage without realizing the complete shutdown of the bosses bu my simple little mesmer

personally, i like nothing better than to see a group of as many classes as possible ... makes for a helluva ride !

Jenosavel · Mar 20, 2006, 05:42 PM // 17:42

I think a really important point was brought up above in that yes, self-healing is nice to have on as many people as can take it. However, if a character is sacrificing their other usefullness to the team to bring a self-heal then the team is worse shape than if they had foregone the self-heals and brought along a character dedicated to keeping them alive.

In particular, my favorite builds to run are axe warrior (of the insanely high DPS variety, not the stance tank variety), pet ranger, and minion master. None of these takes self-heals, because to do so would cripple their primary function. Does this mean I'm dependant on the monks of the group? Yes. Does it mean that I'm being a detriment to my team or in some way being less effective than if I had self-heals? Definitely not.

I think the idea of self-heals being good is more related to the player's awareness of their own hp and surroundings than the actual heal skill on their bar.

Raxxman · Mar 20, 2006, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Self heals have major pressure off monk capacity, I'd say taking a self heal is as important as taking a Res sig.